Why Science Communication Matters: Storytelling, Research and the Media with Krista Lamb

Krista Lamb: [00:00:00] And so that's where I came in, but it's also now when you look at how to combat misinformation, that's the greatest tool that we have in our toolbox is understanding. Because for so long, we just told these long, meandering, complex stories and hoped people would understand, because we look at it as, "Oh, well, we're the smart people.

Krista Lamb: We're the scientists, and people will understand that this is important." Now we're up against people who are doing dances on TikTok to sell you probiotics or random magic beans, and we're not competing because people aren't paying attention to us, and they're not understanding us.

Dr. McGavock: We're not competing because people aren't paying attention to us, and they don't understand us.

Dr. McGavock: That's a [00:01:00] conversation that we need to have, and that's the conversation we're having today with Krista Lamb on the Emerging Scholar Podcast. Over the course of the 17 episodes that we've covered in season two, a thesis has been building in my mind. Dr. Michael Narvey first reminded us what happens when credible scientists go silent.

Dr. McGavock: The vacuum fills with misinformation, and good storytellers with bad science beat good science with bad storytellers. And then last week, near the end of my conversation with Nav Tangri, he reminded us that we need to be good storytellers to publish our papers, to get grants, to translate our findings into clinical practice.

Dr. McGavock: And the thesis that bubbled up from these conversations and the 15 others that preceded them was this: science needs storytellers. Science without story doesn't stick and has less impact. Today's guest has dedicated her entire career to this thesis and built a platform for trainees to hone their skills as storytellers.

Dr. McGavock: Krista Lamb is a science communicator, podcast producer, and award-winning author. She won the Science Writers and Communicators of Canada Book Award for Beyond Banting. [00:02:00] She runs the How to Talk About Health training platform, and she spent years embedded inside some of Canada's leading research networks, watching scientists struggle to explain the most important work of their lives to get people to care about it.

Dr. McGavock: Today we cover three things: the dos and don'ts of communicating your science to the general public, how to build a real relationship with journalists and communications teams, and the art of the short form talk, the poster session, the three-minute thesis, and how to make someone care when they have no time to do it.

Dr. McGavock: From Gila monsters to clue boards to science in drag, today we learn how to become scientific storytellers. Welcome, everyone, to the Emerging Scholar Podcast. It is my distinct pleasure to have a pillar of the diabetes research community who's actually not a research scholar in the traditional terms.

Dr. McGavock: Krista Lamb, welcome to the Emerging Scholar Podcast.

Krista Lamb: Well, thank you for having me. I may be the only person with [00:03:00] absolutely no scientific credentials to be on your show. But I will do my best.

Dr. McGavock: Well, publishing a book and being involved in multiple publications and actually working in one of the preeminent research labs, I think would give you some credentials for being part of the podcast.

Krista Lamb: Fair enough. I've got the life skills.

Dr. McGavock: And what you just said earlier really struck me, which was hilarious, that normally you're on the other side, and so you're gonna have a hard time not asking me questions, but just responding as the guest. So let's see how this goes.

Krista Lamb: Yeah, I'm out of practice, but I will do my best.

Dr. McGavock: So you produce, you host multiple health podcasts. You produce ma- a prize-winning book in relation to diabetes, and then you run a science communication training platform. What would you say is the through line for all of those three things?

Krista Lamb: I think the through line is that I love research. I love the work that's being done, and I want other people to be as [00:04:00] excited as I am.

Krista Lamb: And in order for that to happen, they have to understand what it is that is being done in research. And so I made it part of my job to tell those stories in ways that are effective and easy to understand, but also to teach the next generation of scientists how they can do a better job at telling their stories, because it shouldn't just be the communicators.

Krista Lamb: It should be all of us that are telling these stories.

Dr. McGavock: Absolutely, and I think that'll be our next question, is how do we get the scientists to do this better? But thinking about our last interview with Dr. Michael Narvey, who has his own social media platform, it is so important now for us as scientists to combat or create content that combats the misinformation that we're getting.

Dr. McGavock: And so you came through this with a, you said earlier, a passion for research. Like, why do you love research, and what role do you think this communication plays [00:05:00] maybe in going against people who are either misinterpreting research or just making false claims?

Krista Lamb: Yeah. I mean, I fell in love when I worked at Diabetes Canada when I saw the work that was being done to create therapies and to come up with new ways for people to live healthier lives.

Krista Lamb: And all of these discussions I was seeing were really eye-opening to me because even as someone who had an interest in this, I didn't know the depth or the breadth of what was happening in particular in Canada. And so I really, as one of my friends said, caught the research bug from looking at all of the things I was seeing through the fundraising work and the advocacy and outreach work, and wondering how I could do a better job of explaining it to people who didn't understand it.

Dr. McGavock: Nice.

Krista Lamb: And so that's where I came in. But it's also now when you look at how to combat misinformation, that's the greatest tool that we have in our toolbox, is understanding. Because for so long [00:06:00] we just told these long, meandering, complex stories and hoped people would understand because we look at it as, "Oh, well, we're the smart people.

Krista Lamb: We're the scientists, and people will understand that this is important." Now we're up against people who are doing dances on TikTok to sell you probiotics or random magic beans, and we're not competing because people aren't paying attention to us and they're not understanding us, whereas that person who has a really catchy slogan or can tell the story in five minutes-

Dr. McGavock: Mm-hmm

Krista Lamb: is able to capture your attention and get your money out of your wallet, often for something that's not a real cure. And so we're kind of being apples and oranges because we're not adapting to meet the needs of the current audience.

Dr. McGavock: Absolutely. And I think Mike Narvey said this really nicely at the end of our last interview, that social media is media. And if they're using [00:07:00] media to promote misinformation, we can't say, "Oh, social media's not for me.

Dr. McGavock: I don't do that." Because if we wanna be in the space promoting the truth, we need to engage with these platforms.

Krista Lamb: And I would agree to a certain degree. I have changed my opinion on social media a little bit over the years, and that would be, I think that for a lot of us, if you're good at social media and you enjoy social media, and it feels like a safe space for you to be in- Mm-hmm

Krista Lamb: then it is a great tool to have those communicators in that space. There are people like Science Sam, who do incredible work, and Dr. Noc, and so many people who are in that space doing wonderful work, and we need them. But for young students, especially students who might be coming from backgrounds that are maybe underrepresented or where they have a little bit more vulnerability, I do want to just stress that you don't have to do social media.

Krista Lamb: Hmm. There are so many ways to share your science effectively and to communicate effectively beyond just having that platform. And so if it's not a [00:08:00] safe space for you, I've left the Twitter platform, whatever they're calling it now- Yeah ... because it was ugly, and I didn't like the, the place that I was.

Dr. McGavock: Yeah.

Krista Lamb: So I think that there are nuances to the argument- Yeah ... and that there are other things that if you're sitting here listening to it going, "I can't do social media," I totally think there are ways that you can still be an effective communicator.

Dr. McGavock: That's awesome, and that's what we're gonna talk about today.

Dr. McGavock: So if I were to ask my colleagues, I don't know if anyone would ever say this out loud, or sadly, no one would actually have the self-awareness to admit this, but most scientists are not very good at communicating their work publicly, either because it's complex or they don't have the skills. What is it that they are missing in their ability to communicate this work that we do to the general public?

Krista Lamb: Well, first and foremost, we don't train scientists to communicate their [00:09:00] work. It's not something that is typically part of the programs. And in particular now, I'm finding that the younger generation often have PIs or supervisors who didn't get the training, so they don't know how to give the training themselves.

Krista Lamb: So we rely on the people that are good communicators to teach everybody.

Dr. McGavock: Mm-hmm.

Krista Lamb: And we teach the students when we go into their coursework, and we teach them how to work in the lab, we teach them how to talk to their supervisor. And so they're always trying to impress their supervisor even when that's not the person that's right in front of them.

Krista Lamb: And that's one of the disservices that we do, is that we don't offer them opportunities to become better communicators or help them understand why it's important to their careers, because we weren't taught that.

Dr. McGavock: Right. So we've outlined some dos and don'ts. You and I have kinda talked about some of these dos and don'ts.

Dr. McGavock: So either when you're at a conference and watching someone speak, or you see grad students doing this for the first time, and let's say they're doing it to a general audience, 'cause it's different than presenting [00:10:00] this at a scientific conference, but trying to explain this to a different audience. What are the top two things that grad students or scientists generally consistently get wrong when they're trying to communicate their work?

Krista Lamb: Well, I would argue that even when you're at a scientific conference, you should know who the audience is, because sometimes it's not the same as the audience that you are training to speak to. So if it's a different type of scientist, keep that in mind, and that goes to my biggest tip, which is who are you talking to?

Dr. McGavock: Mm.

Krista Lamb: The number of times I've gone up to students at a poster session, which for people who are not scientists is a bonkers concept in the first place. Yeah. Like the first time I went to one, I was like, "What are we doing here?" You walk up to them, they tell you nothing about what they do, they don't ask you one question, and they launch into this long spiel about what it is they've done, never giving you a moment to get a word in to ask, "How can I make this relevant to me?"

Krista Lamb: Whereas in a normal conversation, you would introduce yourself to the person, get a little sense of who [00:11:00] they are, and then try to adapt what you're doing to the work that they do, or their interest level. Are they a person living with the condition? Are they a person who's there as a funder? Are they a person there that's just been invited as a speaker and maybe isn't in the field?

Krista Lamb: Find those things out, and then figure out how to have the conversation through that lens. Because we often, again, we speak to our supervisor and no one else. Uh-huh. And that's only effective when it's your supervisor in front of you. So that is a huge tip. And I see this also where people will get up on stage even at a multidisciplinary conference, and they'll give the best islet biology talk, or they will give the best beta cell talk.

Krista Lamb: Yeah. But if the other people in the audience aren't in that field, they will watch them opening their laptops and starting to say, "I'm gonna answer my email because this isn't relevant." And you're losing opportunities there for collaboration, especially if you're looking at down the road how you can bring this from bench to bedside.

Krista Lamb: If you're a foundational researcher, this is a [00:12:00] great opportunity to talk to a clinician scientist, but too often we're really just in the weeds too much.

Dr. McGavock: Yeah, that's a really good point. So if you're a basic scientist and a clinician comes up to you, maybe works with people with Type 1 diabetes but may not have any Awareness of what's happening currently in the weeds of beta cell biology.

Dr. McGavock: And you need to reframe what you're talking about. One of the things I was hoping I could talk about too is jargon, 'cause there's so much jargon in the basic science.

Krista Lamb: So much jargon.

Dr. McGavock: So that's one thing. The second group might be someone who's at a poster session or someone who's in the hallway that is maybe a potential funder of your work, and you need to know where they're coming from, how much do they really know.

Dr. McGavock: Why did you come to my poster? Or what brings you here today to talk about? So that you know a little bit more about where they're coming from.

Krista Lamb: Yeah, I can count on one hand the number of times someone at a poster session has asked me a question about who I am and why I'm [00:13:00] there.

Dr. McGavock: Wow.

Krista Lamb: And that, I think, is a challenge for people.

Krista Lamb: They have this preconceived notion of what's going to happen in that format, and they're very nervous often, so I give grace in that. But I think that the ones who have asked have been able to give a much better presentation, which on the few occasions where they ask me to do things like judge, is really helpful for them.

Dr. McGavock: Yeah, exactly. And that could make a huge difference. It could be a $1 million check, or it could be a $500 check in your pocket for winning this competition. Exactly. Other don'ts, I think jargon and deep methods.

Krista Lamb: Yeah. I give a lot of credit to Dr. Jan Hux, who used to be the CEO at Diabetes Canada, who was one of my mentors, and she taught me the concept of accuracy versus understanding.

Krista Lamb: And she explained to me that scientists and trainees are often taught to show their work. You have to defend it, and quite frankly, sometimes it's a little mean how you talk to each other in these- Yeah ... sessions because- Word count ... you really have to show your work, whereas when you [00:14:00] get in front of the average person, they're not anticipating that you're gonna tell them A, B, C, D, all the way through to Z.

Krista Lamb: They just wanna know what the point is. Mm-hmm. And so figuring out how you can explain what you do and just get to the point. I do whole sessions in my workshops where I'm like, "How can we get to the point of what you do? And not elevator pitch it, but just tell me what is meaningful about this." And if you're using a lot of jargon, we can't get there.

Krista Lamb: No. Because if I don't understand the first words that are coming out of your mouth, you've lost me.

Dr. McGavock: Well, maybe let's walk through an example of the dos. So let's say-

Krista Lamb: Yes ...

Dr. McGavock: a trainee just publishes a paper. They get called up by their local radio station, and the morning host says, "We heard this is a really cool study with really cool findings."

Dr. McGavock: What's the first thing you would tell a trainee to do when they're on the air talking about their study?

Krista Lamb: Well, the first thing I would do is I would say you want to talk about what the point is. And I say this whether [00:15:00] you're doing a poster session talk, whether you're doing any talk. Tell me from the very beginning what was the purpose of this work.

Krista Lamb: Then if you're on the local radio, you also wanna give the caveat that this is early stages, that this is not finished, that this isn't something that you're gonna be able to buy tomorrow at your pharmacy. Those sorts of caveats often don't make it into the general media and they're very important. For years, we didn't mention that the studies that people were talking about were done in mice.

Krista Lamb: So never assume that people know these concepts that you're speaking of. I was once interviewing someone about clinical trials and they said, "Oh, I should probably define what a clinical trial is." And it hit me in that moment that even as someone in this field, I had never really thought about the fact that the majority of people don't know what a clinical trial is.

Krista Lamb: Mm-hmm. They've heard the term- Mm ... but they don't know what it is. Mm. And so thinking about it through that lens.

Dr. McGavock: That's great. I think something that I've [00:16:00] seen a lot of trainees or a lot of young investigators get lost in is the lack of a core message.

Krista Lamb: Mm-hmm.

Dr. McGavock: What is your core one message that you wanna leave with?

Dr. McGavock: Because sometimes you get questions pulling you in all kinds of directions, but you gotta stay close to that core message. Is there a question that a student should ask themselves about finding that core message in th- the work that they're trying to communicate?

Krista Lamb: I always go back to the what's the point.

Dr. McGavock: Hmm.

Krista Lamb: And that's not necessarily what's the point of your work in general, but, but what is the point of this conversation? What is it that you want the person to walk away with? So if you're talking about a specific study, what do you want them to know? If you're talking about a larger term goal, what do you want them to know?

Krista Lamb: Because the best communicators are able to break it down to that core concept of why should I care?

Dr. McGavock: That's awesome. You launched How to Talk About Health in 2024?

Krista Lamb: Yes.

Dr. McGavock: Can you give us some core [00:17:00] foundational concepts that have come out of that?

Krista Lamb: A- absolutely. I think first and foremost, any trainee who plans to talk about health in any way should listen to the first episode, which is Dr.

Krista Lamb: Alice Cheng, who is one of the greatest communicators- Mm-hmm ... I've ever met.

Dr. McGavock: Okay.

Krista Lamb: And I think that what she gets across is how do you sound like you're just an average person- Hmm ... having a conversation. And this is a concept I've heard other people who are really good communicators talk about. Like, how would you have this conversation with someone in a bar?

Krista Lamb: Like, why do we have to have it as if we're standing over your poster? When the reality is the best communicators are the ones who sound the most natural and who are the most empathetic and who are the most interested in what their audience is looking for. Mm. So those are things that come out again and again when I speak to great communicators.

Krista Lamb: I talked to Dr. Hunter Cherwek, who works with Orbis Canada and Orbis International, does a lot of global health work, and so he's going into communities where often language is a barrier, [00:18:00] about ways that you can still have effective communications if you're really just being empathetic and understanding what the problem is and listening.

Krista Lamb: Because we often think about communicating as telling people things, where it's also about hearing what they're interested in, hearing what they need, and then being able to communicate about that.

Dr. McGavock: Is that where you would define the empathy piece? I love the fact that you say good communicators are empathetic.

Dr. McGavock: Can you build on that a little bit?

Krista Lamb: Yeah, absolutely, because one of the reasons I love communicating about science and research is because I care deeply about the outcomes. I care deeply about the research, and I care deeply about why we're doing this work. There are people in my life I love with diabetes.

Krista Lamb: There are people in my life who are living with chronic conditions who I love deeply. And so that empathy is part of the reason that I wanted people to understand these stories. That empathy comes when you listen to the other people and you say, "What is it about this that interests you? Why are you here?

Krista Lamb: Why are you [00:19:00] listening to me?" And you find out what it is important to them, and you learn to think about it through their lens. That's why we talked earlier about having people with lived experience involved. Having that empathy and understanding of what they're actually dealing with day to day makes a huge difference, even when you're looking at cells in a dish.

Dr. McGavock: Totally. Do you get people to practice that?

Krista Lamb: Sorry ...

Dr. McGavock: do you get people to practice? 'Cause it- it's not something that comes out naturally in people who communicate science, and also it is very challenging for a lot of new beginners to think about the complexity of what they've been taught to understand, and then to have to rewind that, unpackage that, and then create it in a way, especially if it's cells in a dish, that's appetizing for an audience.

Krista Lamb: That's also one of the reasons I think that if you are someone who's working with cells in a dish, that you should make it an effort to get out and be part of the [00:20:00] community, or to get out and meet people who are living with the condition that you're trying to work on, and to have those conversations.

Krista Lamb: Because often when I ask people when I'm interviewing them, "How did you come into this field?" Mm-hmm. Like, what interested you about diabetes or osteoporosis or whatever topic I'm speaking to them about, sometimes they have no answer to that. And I think, oh, it would be really helpful if you had an understanding, a little bit, of what it's like on the other side of that Petri dish, on the other side of that microscope, so that you could maybe be slightly more empathetic when you're coming up with ideas.

Krista Lamb: But also because I think it makes you a better scientist.

Dr. McGavock: Absolutely. Absolutely. If you can't communicate this the right way, either on paper or in the public, you are losing a huge audience, and that hurts you throughout most of your career, I would say.[00:21:00]

Dr. McGavock: When you and I had lunch at Diabetes Canada and talked about this, one of the things that you talked about was teaching grad students what to do and what not to do when engaging with a journalist. So you are a journalist. You've either reached out to grad students to say you have something, or grad students or their comms departments have reached out to journalists to say, "We have a new paper that's come out, and we need some help communicating this."

Dr. McGavock: Can you maybe walk me through an experience where you felt like, "Ooh, this person is not doing this the right way" and then maybe transition to someone who was doing this the right way?

Krista Lamb: Well, I can say from both ends, right? I've been on the communications team, and I've been a journalist, and there are things that I think are really good tips.

Krista Lamb: So, you know, if you're asked to do a podcast, if you're asked to do some kind of project or journalism piece. So if you're asked to be interviewed, at any point ask some questions. [00:22:00] Oftentimes we're just like, "Okay, I'll do it," and then you never hear from them again. They never ask what the point of the interview is.

Krista Lamb: They never say, "Oh, you know, what is it that you're hoping to get from this?" Some journalists won't give you the questions, and that's totally fine. Mm-hmm. That's standard journalism practice. Mm-hmm. But what they will usually do is give you an idea of what they're hoping to get in this encounter. You want to listen to or read some of the work that the person has done.

Krista Lamb: I'm often blown away by people who come on my podcast who've never listened to my podcast because it can be a really helpful way to research what it is that the person is going to ask you about, the tone of the podcast, the way that the person asks questions. And so even if you don't have the questions, you have a sense of what it's like, and you have a sense of what's gonna happen, which can help both with your nerves but also with your preparation because that's the other thing I always say, be prepared.

Krista Lamb: Do some work ahead of time. Sometimes I get people showing up who wanna do a podcast, and they've brought a slide deck, and I have to explain that that's not what we're doing here. Yeah. Or they [00:23:00] wanna read all the answers. Yeah. And I'm like, "Okay, let's just have a conversation." Yeah. And that can be a really hard concept for academics who are so used to speaking to their slides and so used to having the presentation mode on.

Krista Lamb: So thinking about how you can be prepared for the thing that you have been asked to do. The other thing I would say in your preparation, especially if you're doing the news media, as humans we often feel like we have to get the gold star, so we want to please the person who is in front of us. Mm-hmm. We want that person to feel happy and comfortable.

Krista Lamb: Mm-hmm. So even if we don't know the answer or are uncomfortable with the question, we will answer it the way we think it should be answered rather than the way that it should be answered. Or we're afraid to say, "I don't know." So those are things where you can prepare for what if you get a question that isn't what you expected.

Krista Lamb: What if you get a question that doesn't represent your work correctly but seems to be [00:24:00] the direction the journalist wants to go in? Mm-hmm. Like maybe they're talking about cure a lot, and you're like, "Wait, this is in mice." These are things that you should be prepared for. Mm-hmm. But often people don't, and our nature to please gets in our way.

Dr. McGavock: That is so great. So- Linking those two themes, do you think you'll get a lot out of who the journalist is or who the person asking you for the interview is by asking a few questions before you come on? And if so, what kind of questions would you say we should be asking to get a sense of where is this interview potentially gonna go?

Krista Lamb: Yeah, just say, "What is it that you're hoping to touch on in this interview?" 'Cause we don't need to ask for the questions. Like I said, a lot of times they won't give them to you, and they're not really always helpful anyway. But just get a sense of what are the main themes that you're hoping to hit on.

Krista Lamb: Then listen to or do some research into the reporter that you're gonna be speaking to. Yeah. If you're doing an interview about a very specific healthcare topic and the person is not a health reporter, there's a good chance that is the person in the newsroom who got assigned this [00:25:00] today, who has done absolutely no research, and maybe has heard five things about the condition, and may have so many errors in their understanding of what it is you do.

Krista Lamb: Yeah. And so knowing that can help you be just a little bit prepared to steer the conversation. And I do media training with people all the time who have done interviews a million times, and at the end they're like, "Oh, I had no idea I could just steer the question that way," or, "That I could, you know, use that term and flip things around."

Krista Lamb: Because it's really just learning how to have better conversations.

Dr. McGavock: When you're media training someone, what are some of the tips that you would give to someone going in when you... You just said, "I didn't even know I could turn that question around." What are some of the ways to get people to think about that?

Dr. McGavock: Because I'll be honest with you, as soon as that camera comes on or as soon as this podcast Zoom comes on, I am drawing blanks and I'm going straight to what I know. It's very challenging to reboot. And I totally agree with you. I [00:26:00] want to please that person.

Krista Lamb: My big tips are listen to the question. So often we go in with key messages, and we just start spouting our key messages as soon as the person...

Krista Lamb: Like, the s- the person could be like, "How are you today?" Mm-hmm. All of a sudden you're like, "There are so many people who are dealing with this con-" And you're just not listening because you're nervous. No. And so I always say listen to the question and answer the question they ask you.

Dr. McGavock: Mm-hmm.

Krista Lamb: If they ask you a question that is really negative and what you wanna talk about is not necessarily negative, so they come in with a really negative slant, and you could say, "I understand where you're coming from.

Krista Lamb: However," and then go into the topic that you want to talk about, but in a more positive way.

Dr. McGavock: Mm-hmm.

Krista Lamb: Or, "You're right, diabetes is a really big issue, and a lot of people are dealing with it, and it's something that's very frustrating and difficult for people. And actually, the reason I do this work is because I wanna change things.

Krista Lamb: I want things to be better for people living with diabetes, and so we're really focused on this," and then moving it in that direction. So these are simple things, and you're not doing anything negative, [00:27:00] and you're not- No ... manipulating the conversation. You're probably helping the journalist in a lot of ways because they don't wanna have a conversation that's particularly negative.

Krista Lamb: They just might not have the information or the background on what they've been asked to cover today.

Dr. McGavock: Yeah, and they're rushing. I have had great conversations with great radio hosts that are just open-ended and they wanna hear from me. I have others who come in there with a huge personal bias about diabetes or about obesity.

Krista Lamb: Mm-hmm.

Dr. McGavock: And it comes through right away where they wanna go. Yeah. One of the things that I've tried to do is just put down little notes in front of me of my three core messages to say, "Do not divert away from this." If they say, "Oh, well, it's all about chips and pop right now, and kids are just addicted to video games," m- that's not my message.

Dr. McGavock: I could get sucked down that path, but if I look down, I can see, "Okay, I gotta bring this back somehow."

Krista Lamb: And I always say that there are words like actually that are really positive words, 'cause you don't wanna say, you know, but, but. Mm-hmm. You wanna be like, [00:28:00] however, actually, and really just the way that you frame it can help them move in a different direction while also making your point.

Krista Lamb: And sometimes when you get in a situation where they're trying to get you to say something, and it's clear that they're trying to get you to say something, if there's a problem in the world and they want you to make it sound bigger than it is, or if they want you to push towards this being more of a cure or whatever it might be- Mm-hmm

Krista Lamb: it's not a problem to say, "You know, actually, that's not the case with this particular situation. However," and just move into something more positive.

Dr. McGavock: Mm-hmm.

Krista Lamb: There are so many little things that you can be doing, but it's also, again, if you've listened to that person's show before or you have a sense, even go through Google and learn a little bit more about their interests, you can get a sense of what you might be facing before you go in.

Krista Lamb: Mm. For example, if you're going on talk radio, you're probably gonna have a contentious conversation. Whereas if you're going to do, like, a five-second hit on the, like, 5:00 news, you're probably fine.

Dr. McGavock: Yes. But actually, in my experience, it's the opposite. The talk radio- Oh ... has been great, and the national [00:29:00] news outlets have been less than great.

Krista Lamb: Well, there you go. But again, if you spend some time, and it's also is the person a health reporter? Like, just find that little piece of information out. Google them. Oh. That's a huge difference.

Dr. McGavock: That is so great. That is such a great piece of advice to figure out, like you said at the beginning, who's your audience.

Dr. McGavock: Yeah. Let's say I got a paper coming out and I wanna share this broadly. Am I reaching out to a journalist? Am I working with my comms team? What is the best way for me to start that conversation or that relationship to be able to share my information?

Krista Lamb: Well, I would start even before you have the paper finished.

Krista Lamb: I would really work on your lay summary and your graphical abstract.

Dr. McGavock: Mm-hmm.

Krista Lamb: And having ones that you can share with your comms team, who remember, are probably not experts in the specific thing that you are doing.

Dr. McGavock: Mm-hmm.

Krista Lamb: But if you make it easy for them to understand and to see the value-

Dr. McGavock: Hmm ...

Krista Lamb: they are much more likely to be interested in trying to [00:30:00] work with you to get that attention for it, because they are more likely to get attention than you are.

Krista Lamb: However, if you've been working on your personal brand and you have a social media community, a lot of us have huge LinkedIn followings, a lot of us have a lot of people in those that are journalists, you can also be sharing those things there. So I say from day one, when you're putting your paper together, really thinking about that lay summary and making it an actual lay summary, not just whatever ChatGPT told you was a lay summary.

Krista Lamb: Yeah. Like, an actual good, thoughtful lay summary-

Dr. McGavock: Yeah ...

Krista Lamb: and thoughtful graphical abstract that will work in those fields can be a huge help. Because the comms team wants to help you, but oftentimes we do a bad job communicating with our communications teams.

Dr. McGavock: 100%, and they are not scientific communicators.

Krista Lamb: No.

Dr. McGavock: They could have come out of anywhere and landed in that position, so you gotta help 'em out. There's no way they're gonna learn. And if you work in my [00:31:00] institute, you have to cover every pediatric condition

Krista Lamb: Yep

Dr. McGavock: So it's unfair to them to try to have to learn all of these things.

Krista Lamb: And you will notice that some of the researchers have better relationships and get more PR and more press, and it's usually because they have a good relationship with the comms team.

Krista Lamb: And they do things like listen when the comms team suggests what would be a good hook for this. Mm-hmm. Or when the comms team writes a story about them, they don't send it back with 75,000 edits. Usually, I find one of the PIs that I've worked with before, he said that he thought it was a career limiting decision to send that many edits back to a comms person when I spoke to him about how this happens pretty frequently, and a lot of times with young investigators.

Krista Lamb: They think that we're collaborating on something, whereas you really need the comms person to be in your corner. You really want the comms team to know that you're willing to help them create something that is going to appeal to a mass audience, which is their expertise.

Dr. McGavock: Yeah. [00:32:00] Let's say you write an article about one of my papers- Yep

Dr. McGavock: and it's a lay summary and it- it's there to grab the audience that wants to learn about diabetes, and then I rewrite it to make it look- Yeah ... exactly like the paper that I just wrote- Not helpful ... with all the scientific jargon. Not helpful at all.

Krista Lamb: Because the comms team is there to help bring forward your career- Mm-hmm

Krista Lamb: to help you get the attention for your work, and they're the experts in how to reach that lay audience often. Yeah. Like, they know what the donors are gonna be interested in. They know. And that doesn't mean don't correct errors. They want you to correct the errors. But it means it doesn't have to be a collaborative piece where you work together.

Krista Lamb: You can send helpful feedback. I don't want anyone to feel like you can't give feedback. That's not what I'm saying here. Mm-hmm. It's just oftentimes the comms team is working from the angle of how can we get this to the donor, how can we get this to the media, how can we get this so that people will pick it up and be interested and inspired by it?

Krista Lamb: So help them help you.

Dr. McGavock: Awesome. And scientists often over hedge, and [00:33:00] so you can't rewrite to over hedge because then you lose the story.

Krista Lamb: Yeah, or they're looking at it from a different perspective, and that perspective isn't a bad perspective. It's just a different perspective. Mm. And being open to having that communication with the people who, again, are really just trying to help you.

Krista Lamb: Like, they want you to be successful. Yeah. It's in their best interest. Yeah. So work with them- They're on your team ... and support them.

Dr. McGavock: Yeah.

Krista Lamb: 100%. And I always get asked, why do certain researchers get more attention than others? And I am very clear that it often comes down to they're very good to work with, and they're very easy to work with-

Dr. McGavock: Awesome

Krista Lamb: and they make the job of the comms team easier.

Dr. McGavock: I- I've heard that so many times

Dr. McGavock: Okay, what makes a good lay summary, and then what makes a good... Who, where do you do your graphical abstract to make it a great one? But let's start with the lay summary. Great. How do you know a good lay summary?

Krista Lamb: A good lay summary is one that my mom, who has no [00:34:00] scientific background, could read and understand what the point is.

Dr. McGavock: Mm.

Krista Lamb: I always say that find someone in your life who has no idea what you do-

Dr. McGavock: Mm-hmm ...

Krista Lamb: and have them read it, and do they understand it? So

Dr. McGavock: good.

Krista Lamb: Because so many times the lay summary that the students come up with is just basically a slightly shorter version of your abstract that took out some of the jargon.

Dr. McGavock: Yeah.

Krista Lamb: And that is not helpful. Yeah. So thinking about how do we make it clear, concise, understandable.

Dr. McGavock: Impactful?

Krista Lamb: Yeah. What is the point? What is the hook?

Dr. McGavock: Yeah.

Krista Lamb: As I would say in journalism. Yeah. I often talk in journalism jargon. Yes. Like we always say, "Don't bury the lead."

Dr. McGavock: Right on.

Krista Lamb: So often we're burying the lead in science.

Dr. McGavock: Okay, graphical abstracts. I think it is so important, but I have such a hard time designing these. ChatGPT or other AIs don't always do a very good job. What's your recommendation?

Krista Lamb: And see, I don't design graphical abstracts, so I don't have a technical design. I work in Canva. Yeah. But my whole point with them, is it just a bunch of lines [00:35:00] and figures?

Dr. McGavock: Mm.

Krista Lamb: Because so often we get bogged down in data, data, data. Mm-hmm. And I'll get a graphical abstract sent to me, and I'm like, "Oh, boy, lots of lines, lots of arrows, lots of pointy things, but I still don't know what it is you've shown me here."

Dr. McGavock: Mm-hmm.

Krista Lamb: And so again, when you start to design them, think about what can I be using to tell this story.

Krista Lamb: And a pro tip that I have encountered many times is if you are going to be talking about unhealthy food choices, for example, as many people working in diabetes do, perhaps a donut is not the appropriate thing to use. And are you using stigmatizing images in your- Yes ... graphical abstract? Yes. Because I will call you out if I see it.

Dr. McGavock: Yes. Yeah, yeah. Many people will. And this- Yeah ... I think Canada is one of the leaders in this avoiding the stigma, preventing stigma from happening- Mm-hmm ... within this space, so that's good to hear. And a tip to build on that, season one we interviewed Norm Rosenblum, who was the director at [00:36:00] the Institute for Nutrition, Metabolism, and Diabetes at CIHR.

Dr. McGavock: That graphical abstract, when he created one for his very first CIHR grant, it was probably a little more complex than what you would see in the lay public, but that followed him throughout his career, and that became the centerpiece for selling the grant because a really good graphical abstract will speak a thousand words.

Dr. McGavock: And someone reviewing your grant who doesn't know your area really well, if they can fully grasp what you're trying to get at, will more positively review that grant if you can do that. So it can be used in multiple spaces if you can design a really good theoretical framework or abstract about what you're trying to achieve there

Krista Lamb: And I will give a shout-out here, 'cause I mentioned earlier that you don't have to necessarily be doing social media.

Krista Lamb: You don't necessarily have to be this amazing speaker. I have an incredible colleague, Janina Gowden from New Zealand. I interviewed her for How to Talk About Health about graphic [00:37:00] medicine. Mm. She does so much in terms of making healthcare topics understandable. She has her personal line of Miss Diabetes.

Krista Lamb: You've probably seen her comics all over the place if you are someone living with diabetes. But she does so much work for universities, taking these research topics that are complex and using graphics to make them understandable. And I've seen more and more emphasis on this as so many young science communicators are using their artistic talents because they're saying like, "I'm not gonna be a podcaster.

Krista Lamb: I'm not gonna be a social media superstar. What I'm going to do is I'm gonna use my artistic talents to tell these stories."

Dr. McGavock: That's awesome. You gotta find your friends who are good artists, especially if they're scientists. So now let's move into the other topic that we talked about that I think I've seen firsthand because you were working with some trainees in a national organization, I think it was CERTAIN- Yeah

Dr. McGavock: talking about how do you do a really [00:38:00] good short poster or three-minute thesis presentation? So let's talk first about, I think everyone kinda knows what a poster is.

Krista Lamb: Yep.

Dr. McGavock: But let's do a short form poster or a three-minute thesis. How is that different? What are we trying to get across in terms of communicating your knowledge when you only have a really short period of time?

Krista Lamb: I always say that these are the things that the CERTAIN team has taught me, the Canadian Islet Research Training Network- Mm-hmm ... has taught me so much about how you can do an amazing three-minute thesis or an amazing poster session, even if you have the most complex work, if you just break it down into things that people will understand.

Krista Lamb: I saw one trainee do hers as a Clue board, where each of the cells were different Clue characters, and it was brilliant. I've seen others who got up and explained it based on real estate analogies. I've seen so many cool concepts, and they were all different. Mm-hmm. But they all had the same [00:39:00] core concept, which was they figured out what the point was, and they got to the point from the very beginning.

Krista Lamb: Because when you have a minute or if you have three minutes, there is no messing around. You have to figure out what am I trying to tell you, and do it in the most lay terms possible. And if you can add a layer of creativity, even better. 'Cause I gotta tell you, watching the CERTAIN students do their three-minute thesis this year was just

Krista Lamb: It was one of the most heartwarming things I've ever seen, 'cause I remember three or four years ago, it would not have gone that well. Seeing them use person-centered language.

Dr. McGavock: Yeah.

Krista Lamb: Anybody walking into the room would've understood what they were talking about, no matter whether they were one of the catering staff or one of the people who was an expert in islet biology, and that is beautiful.

Dr. McGavock: I wish I was there to see that. I have seen certain trainees present, not certain- Mm-hmm ... trainees, but trainees from the CERTAIN program present, and they have been incredible. [00:40:00] What were some of the first things that you gave to them to flip the narrative from, "Here's my abstract. I have to make my abstract a short presentation," to, "This is almost like an art project, and I need a great hook"?

Dr. McGavock: It's a combination of maybe art and salesmanship. What were some of the first things you taught these students to get that concept?

Krista Lamb: I give full credit here to their PIs because the first people I trained, I did a lot of my initial training with their supervisors. Uh-huh. And they really, really bought into the idea that it was important for them to explain to their students and their trainees that we need to break this down so people understand.

Krista Lamb: So now they speak in person-centered language. Now they work with Diabetes Action Canada, and they have patient partners coming in to help them with the lay translations. They work with organizations that make sure that their trainees are well-educated in how to [00:41:00] be communicators. That is the most important thing, I think, is that they knew that their supervisors saw this as an asset and gave them the opportunity to be creative and to try things and to fail and to try again.

Krista Lamb: Believe me, the first time you do a lay translation, the first time you do a one-minute thesis, you're probably not gonna be great at it.

Dr. McGavock: Mm-hmm.

Krista Lamb: Nobody is. But their supervisors let them be experimental, gave them permission to use really lay language, and learn that they weren't going to be penalized for that.

Krista Lamb: So those are the tricks I think that are great, you know, doing all those things, but you have to have buy-in. Totally. You have to have those people top-down saying- Try. Make a clue board. Go ahead. Let's see what happens. Because otherwise everyone is afraid that they're gonna lose marks. Everyone is afraid that they're not going to be seen as, [00:42:00] uh, serious enough.

Krista Lamb: Everyone is afraid that they're gonna fail, and it's gonna be perceived poorly. Mm-hmm. And when you have that buy-in, you see beautiful things.

Dr. McGavock: Was it something special about the beta cell community that all the PIs tended to buy in, or what did you tell the PIs that got them to change the way that they reframe?

Dr. McGavock: And after this, can you explain a little bit about the person-centered language, why that's important as well? Like, what helped them flip that?

Krista Lamb: I think it was that they, one, invited me in to have these conversations, and they were willing to listen to them. They also saw the value of funding. They saw the value

Krista Lamb: of being able to explain that work in a way that was going to appeal to people who had the ability to support that work. And when you go into a room, and every single one of your trainees and every single one of the people in your group are able to have these really in-depth conversations, that doesn't make them any less better as islet biologists.

Krista Lamb: In fact, I think it makes them better islet biologists. [00:43:00] But they are so interested and invested in this idea that if people understand what we're doing, if they know why this is valuable, then they're going to see it supported, and I don't think that it is surprising given that we're seeing so much investment in beta cell biology in Canada and in islet cell biology in Canada compared to some of the other areas.

Dr. McGavock: I thought it was gonna be a bust asking basic scientists to do patient engagement '

Krista Lamb: Cause I didn't think

Dr. McGavock: they could- I was surprised

Krista Lamb: too ...

Dr. McGavock: I didn't think they could do it. So back to that, I agree that having the initiative there, and we do have a special group of people. Shout out- Mm ... to the CERTAIN network.

Krista Lamb: Yeah. Uh- Erin Mulvihill, Rob Screaton-

Dr. McGavock: Yep ...

Krista Lamb: Christine Doucette, Jenny Bruin- Peter-

Dr. McGavock: Peter Johnson ...

Krista Lamb: amazing scientists themselves who have just really embraced this. And you asked about person-centered language. Mm-hmm. And language is something I speak about a lot- Mm-hmm ... because the diabetes community has been really passionate about the language matters.

Krista Lamb: But in [00:44:00] foundational science and in science in general, it's been really hard for some people to embrace this idea. Like, having people not say the diabetic patient- Yeah ... is one of the things that I see as a win. So when you have all of the islet biologists not using that language and speaking as if the person in the room might be living with the condition, because sometimes when you don't know what it's like to live with a condition, you can be very callous in how you use words.

Krista Lamb: You can be very stigmatizing in how you use words. The number of times I've seen, like, an obese belly as just up on the screen, and you're like, "Really?"

Dr. McGavock: Yeah.

Krista Lamb: As someone who has lived in a bigger body, that's not what I want to see, even if I am at a scientific talk. So thinking about all of these things, even if you are the most foundational scientist, even if you never work with people, you're only ever working with cells, remembering that those cells that you're working on are attached to something.

Dr. McGavock: Yes.

Krista Lamb: That the hope is that they will [00:45:00] help people. Mm-hmm. That is very important. Mm-hmm. And so again, shout out to the islet biology community for making that, uh, a primary, and again, working with Diabetes Action Canada, working with patient partners, which for basic scientists, I think was a pretty big evolution, and they've done some really extraordinary things.

Dr. McGavock: Nice. Uh, I would totally agree, and I think an, an important experience for a young investigator, a young scholar, is to present in front of people with lived experience almost exclusively. Get away- Yep ... from the scientific talk. Go right to the people with lived experience, and then think about your language, how you're using your language, so.

Dr. McGavock: Just to wrap that up. Oh, you were gonna say something about presenting to lay audience?

Krista Lamb: Yeah. I've trained people to speak at different sessions to do their oral abstracts when they were told in advance that it was going to be people with lived experience who were judging, and it was very interesting to me that the people who embraced that and really took it to [00:46:00] heart did so well, whereas the ones that stuck to their academic guns and did the same oral abstract that they would've done at any conference- Mm-hmm

Krista Lamb: did not win. I felt like a proud mom when one of the students who is a master's student, you know, her first oral abstract won, 'cause she really, like, took to heart this idea of making it understandable.

Dr. McGavock: That's so great. And for the young scholars thinking about writing grants, I sit on two panels. We have lay reviewers, and they read your lay summary, and it gets scored, and it could be the be all and end all.

Dr. McGavock: If you don't have that really good hook to make them understand why, they feel like you don't care about them and their role at the table, and it could crush a grant.

Krista Lamb: Yep. Absolutely. People forget how important it is, because we'd also don't teach it, so.

Dr. McGavock: So just to wrap up that, that one, if you're doing a three-minute thesis, you have, what, one slide?

Krista Lamb: Yeah, one or two. This is the thing. Practice it, practice it, practice it.

Dr. McGavock: Mm-hmm.

Krista Lamb: I actually have people who, you know, call me up and ask if they can [00:47:00] practice their slides with me.

Dr. McGavock: Uh-huh.

Krista Lamb: I'm like, yeah, I will. You know, I'll take the time, and I have had some that you're just like, "Okay, we have to start all over again because this is not in any way what we planned."

Krista Lamb: Or they'll come with like six slides and you're like, "You're not gonna get through this." Or they'll come with six slides and they'll just do it like boom, boom, boom, and they've got it, and they- Yeah ... figured it out. But the ones who practice, practice, practice, they're the ones who do really well.

Dr. McGavock: Any tips on what should go in that slide or what shouldn't?

Krista Lamb: Yeah. Always remember, so often I want to get these slides, there's so much data, and I'm like, "Look, if they have follow-up questions, nobody thinks you didn't do the work." This whole idea that you have to have every single data point on the slide, no. This is where you can make the slide as clear as possible with your point.

Krista Lamb: Something really interesting graphically for people to look at, something that's engaging to look at. Then at the end, if people have questions, you've got your data, you did the work, and you can answer that question that way.

Dr. McGavock: That's awesome. That is what I [00:48:00] see all the time, is the hook is missing. And there's so much data you can't understand what was happening.

Dr. McGavock: And the message may be that I have tried to internalize when I see that, is if I see a TED Talk, there's almost never any data on there. It might be a number or a picture that represents the whole story.

Krista Lamb: Yes.

Dr. McGavock: Would you put your graphical abstract up there, or would you keep it as simple as you can, and then it's your job to kinda sell to the audience what you're doing?

Krista Lamb: Again, it's hard for me to say, because I've seen people do many different things, and they did them well. What I say to students now is, "What works best for you? What is the thing that you do well? And if it's speaking to your graphical abstract and you got a cool graphical abstract, then let's do that. If it's getting up there and talking off the top of your head with a slide of a frog, like, whatever it is-

Krista Lamb: as long as you can make that picture relevant-

Dr. McGavock: Yeah ...

Krista Lamb: then please do that." And so there's no secret formula [00:49:00] other than do what is comfortable for you-

Dr. McGavock: Mm-hmm ...

Krista Lamb: which you can become comfortable with, because sometimes you just have to practice to become comfortable with it, and make it natural. Because if you go out there and you decide you're gonna make a clue board, it's not gonna work.

Krista Lamb: You know? No. That is something that that particular student did that was amazing, and it worked really well for her. But you have something that is creative and interesting, and an idea that works. However, if you start talking about samurais or video game characters- Ah ... which happens so often in the lay abstracts I read on the first draft.

Dr. McGavock: Oh, really?

Krista Lamb: No, no. I'm not kidding. So many.

Dr. McGavock: Okay.

Krista Lamb: I think maybe we have certain things that I would advise against, but in general, just thinking about what is of interest to me, and how can I make this of interest to other people.

Dr. McGavock: That's good. Not everyone knows I know nothing about video games, so any video game analogies would just fire my head.

Krista Lamb: Same. And it was just very funny when I started reading these initial drafts. I was like, "Okay, I think I'm seeing [00:50:00] a theme."

Dr. McGavock: But for those of the audience that don't know you, you won the Science Writers and Communicators of Canada Book Award a few years back for your work titled Beyond Banting, where you interviewed some of the best diabetes superstars across Canada.

Dr. McGavock: Yep, you're in the book. Past and, past and present. I'm in the book. Yes, I don't know if I would fall under the superstars, but there was a journey there, and you told a beautiful story about our journey in Manitoba. Who stood out to you as some of the best communicators, like when you were interviewing people or when you've been to their talks, and what was it about what they did that really stuck out to you?

Krista Lamb: There's some amazing communicators. Dan Drucker. Yeah. I always talk about how he tells a story about the Gila monster and the GLP-1 connection and- Mm ... make you really fascinated. He's also very funny and very off the cuff because he does not care and that's- Yeah ... a, a beautiful thing. I train students to do their presentations similar to Christine Doucette, who is, of course, from Manitoba, and one of the [00:51:00] best communicators I've worked with because she does a fantastic job of illustrating from slide one what the point is, so that even if I don't understand the rest of her data, I am going to understand why this is a really important topic.

Dr. McGavock: Nice.

Krista Lamb: And she tells stories, which is an incredible gift, especially for someone working in cell biology.

Dr. McGavock: Storytelling is the biggest key, in my opinion, of differentiating the good presentations from the bad. People love the starting point of a narrative that captures their attention, like once upon a time.

Dr. McGavock: Oh, you hear once upon a time, and it's got you. I would recommend this book by Will Storr, The Science of Storytelling, that encapsulates some of the key hooks that you can put in there. Great to hear the shout-out to Christine Doucette, by the way. I agree. A local Manitoban who does a phenomenal job telling a story.

Dr. McGavock: Okay, last question. I [00:52:00] feel like most people who get into science do so because it's a little bit insular. You don't have to put yourself out there. You're not doing the sales pitch to make sure, well, you're bringing in money for your family or to keep food on the table. You're spending most of your time in your lab talking to a few people.

Dr. McGavock: It is such a hard skill to develop if you've been drawn into this because of the quiet nature of it. For those people who are, like, struggling and they're thinking, like, "I really don't wanna do this," like, what, what's their first starting point? Where can you inch someone towards becoming a better communicator?

Krista Lamb: Um, I mentioned it a few times, but I think it's worth repeating as our most good concepts, which is just because you see other people communicating their science in ways that are loud- Mm ... or very flamboyant, that doesn't mean that's how you have to communicate your science. I think that there are core skills, like how to write a good lay summary or how to ask a question when a person comes in front of you about who they are, [00:53:00] thinking about how to speak to the audience in front of you.

Krista Lamb: Those are all core skills, but finding the thing that makes you feel most excited and most comfortable. I talk a lot about the Science is a Drag community, which is scientists who perform their science fully in drag. Wow. They're real scientists, real scientific presentations, and that is a very open and outrageous way of doing science communication.

Krista Lamb: However, it's also a way for people who might feel a little bit excluded or people who might feel a bit marginalized. Mm. It's been a place for the LGBTQ+ community to find a safe space to share their science and to get engaged. You might find something like that interesting. You might wanna draw and do art and lean towards graphic medicine.

Krista Lamb: You might want to do something very insular, and that's okay. Mm-hmm. Because the core skills are important, but also finding what speaks to you and what is [00:54:00] important to you and where your skills are highlighted. I like to talk, surprisingly, so here I am- Yeah ... talking about these things and teaching them.

Dr. McGavock: Yeah.

Krista Lamb: But, you know, there's lots of different ways to share, and it's often the people who are most quiet who can find the most compelling ways to tell their stories when they're actually encouraged to do so.

Dr. McGavock: That's beautiful. Find your own voice. Krista, this was awesome. It was practical, generous with your time.

Dr. McGavock: You do amazing work. Uh, you're a pillar in the diabetes community. I said that in a meeting just before I got here. I'm interviewing Krista, and they're like, "Oh, yeah, she does awesome stuff." I thank you so much for the work that you do in Canada and the work that you do for the diabetes community, but also for the last hour and sharing that.

Dr. McGavock: We will put links to all of the work that you do, all of your podcasts, all of your science communication. You do workshops for organizations. We'll put links to that. Anything that we missed that you might wanna put out there that you think an emerging scholar should know about?

Krista Lamb: I think the most [00:55:00] important thing is I've created How to Talk About Health so that people could find some of these ways to communicate more effectively.

Krista Lamb: They are short episodes. We don't put out a lot of them, and we don't put them out that often, but the whole point is that they're evergreen content that if you are interested in this, you can find a topic that may resonate with you depending on what area you work in.

Dr. McGavock: Perfect.

Krista Lamb: If you're a mathematician now.

Krista Lamb: Yeah. Things that you might find interesting are there, and it's available anywhere you find podcasts. And if you go to my website at kristalamb.com, you can find all of the stuff that I do as well.

Dr. McGavock: Awesome. And we'll put all that in the show notes. Can't thank you enough. Look forward to seeing you at the next diabetes conference.

Krista Lamb: Amazing. Thank you so much for doing this. This was a lot of fun.

Dr. McGavock: All right. Thanks, Krista.

Dr. McGavock: That was Krista Lamb, an expert and mentor in scientific communication. I wanna make sure we revisit two things she said today in case they got buried in everything else we covered. Because if you don't take anything else away from this episode, it should be these two things. First, before you [00:56:00] say a single word about your work, you have to ask a question.

Dr. McGavock: Who's the person in front of you and why are they there? At a poster session, in an interview, and before you write your grant or your paper, find out who's listening, who you're talking to. Krista put it plainly. She can count on one hand the number of times someone at a poster session has asked her who she is and why she stopped.

Dr. McGavock: The ones who did ask gave a better presentation every single time. Your audience isn't your supervisor, and so stop talking like it is. Second, get to the point fast. Not eventually, not after the background and the methods and the limitations. In the very first sentence. Tell me what is meaningful about your work.

Dr. McGavock: What do you want me to walk away with? Why should I care? That's your opening, not your conclusion. Never bury the lead. These lessons apply to everything you write or design. A lay summary, a graphical abstract, a three-minute thesis, a piece of media that you're producing about your paper. I wanna close with something that ties all of this back to the bigger argument we've been making today.

Dr. McGavock: When Dan Drucker stands up to give a [00:57:00] lecture about the science behind Ozempic, one of the most consequential medical advances of our generation, he doesn't open with the diabetes epidemic or the obesity epidemic. He doesn't open with mortality statistics. He opens with a Gila monster, a venomous desert lizard whose saliva contains a molecule that shares more than half of its amino acid sequence with a human gut hormone that regulates insulin.

Dr. McGavock: Drucker shipped a live one to Toronto, analyzed the venom, and that lizard got everyone to listen to why his work matters. He leads with the Gila monster because he knows his audience. He also knows that a Gila monster drives curiosity and attention, and opens the door to listening that a bunch of statistics never could.

Dr. McGavock: That's the thesis of this episode. That's the thesis that emerged from all the conversations we had this season. Science without storytelling is science without reach. Nav Tangri's kidney failure equation took 13 years to reach a clinical guideline, not because the science was bad, but the story took time to land.

Dr. McGavock: Mike Narvey is fighting misinformation one post at a time because credible scientists [00:58:00] waited too long to show up. And every scholar we interviewed this year had their own compelling story to tell about their work. After they learn the science, they learn how to tell the world about it. Science needs storytellers.

Dr. McGavock: You're the one who knows the work best. Where does your story start? Krista's How to Talk About Health podcast, her book, and all of her training resources are available at kristalamb.com. Everything else we talked about today is in the show notes. If this episode was useful, share it with someone who needed to hear it.

Dr. McGavock: I'm Jon McGavock. Thanks for following us through another great season. This summer we will drop a few special episodes with new and old guests on adjacent topics. Please stay tuned for them. We will also have a regular Substack article coming out every few weeks on The Emerging Scholar Substack. If you love the interviews, you'll really love the blog.

Dr. McGavock: And if you have any ideas or topics or things you want us to tackle in season three, please shoot us an email at scholar@umfm.com. A huge shout-out to Jared McKetiak and the entire team at UMFM 101.5 for another great season. Enjoy [00:59:00] your summer. Looking forward to seeing you back here at The Emerging Scholar for season three.

Dr. McGavock: The Emerging Scholar podcast was recorded in the UMFM studios located at the University of Manitoba in Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada. This is Treaty One territory, the original homeland of the Anishinaabe, the Ininew, and on the national homeland of the Red River Métis. Manitoba is also homeland to the Anishininew, the Dakota Oyate, and the Dene peoples.

Dr. McGavock: We acknowledge that our water is sourced from Shoal Lake 40 First Nation. As a settler scientist working in health research, I acknowledge TRC Call to Action Number 18, that health inequities between Indigenous and non-Indigenous people are the direct result of colonization. Winnipeg is the center for reconciliation in Canada, and where we are speaking from today is at the crossroads of Canada's history and Canada's future.

Dr. McGavock: We are three kilometers away from one of the most sacred meeting grounds for Indigenous people on the plains and within Turtle Island. [01:00:00] We are also several kilometers away from one of the last residential schools in the province. We are working collectively on reconcili-action with youth, elders, and community leaders to heal from the trauma of colonization, past and present, honor the original treaties, and create a Canada that addresses and eliminates the inequities and injustices of the past and present to create a future for Indigenous children to live and thrive.

Dr. McGavock: On behalf of the team at the Emerging Scholar podcast, we wanna thank Osani Balkaran for the great production for our opening and closing themes. We also wanna thank UMFM 101.5, especially our executive producer, Jared McKetiak, for technical assistance and production on this project. We also wanna thank all of our guests for the discussion and the insight that they've provided.

Dr. McGavock: Once again, thank you for listening. Be sure to subscribe to the Emerging Scholar podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and [01:01:00] umfm.com.